baltimore laid off employees and cut services in the midst of the financial crisis. its leaders now say the city's troubles were aggravated by bankers' manipulation of this key interest rate linked to hundreds of millions of dollars the city had borrowed." so there are real world -- >> there are absolutely real world consequences to this. there are counterparties through all these swap transactions which is what they were trying to manipulate, and those counterparties were being hurt by it, absolutely. it's shocking. it should be punished very severely. and i think there probably is going to be more information coming out about it so i think it's just starting, i don't think it's over. >> you say they should be punished, but the justice department the other day in this settlement with barclays let the bank off if it paid the fine. so that doesn't suggest severe punishment. does it? >> well, you know, i think another thing that troubles me about all the enforcement actions that are brought, and there haven't been enough of them, but they generally, just, they tag the